"Guardians" and Women in Superhero Movies

Long an outspoken advocate of women's issues in movies among Central Indiana filmmakers, Kate Chaplin certainly has her opinions about how ladies are treated in geekdom. Her movie "Leah, Not Leia" addressed that topic, as do frequent blog posts and other writings. Whether she's writing about "Star Wars" or the misogyny of Robin Thicke's hit song "Blurred Lines," Chaplin calls for women to be treated in a respectable way in pop culture.

Chaplin recently wrote a blog about the role of Gamora in "Guardians of the Galaxy," spurring the following conversation with Film Yap writer Joe Shearer about the role of women in comic book movies, specifically the Marvel films.

NOTE: There are minor spoilers surrounding "Guardians" in the conversation.

Joe: I just finished reading your piece on D20Crit on the female-led comic book movie, specifically "Guardians of the Galaxy," where you discuss the slow push to a true female-led comic book superhero movie.

You do a lot of writing on the role of women in popular culture, and while I don't always totally agree with you on the stuff I've read of yours, you do make some salient points. In this piece, you're rather gently disagreeing with a Slate article that argues Gamora is the main character of "Guardians," though you wish she were. I LOVED "Guardians," as many do, but I think Gamora's character especially had some glaring screentime omissions. Her character, more than any of the others, had some really tantalizing bits glossed over, specifically her interactions with Thanos. Every bit of her backstory was revealed in exposition. We never see her with Thanos, and her character suffers for it. We've linked to your post, but talk a little about your feelings on Gamora in this movie, and how women are portrayed in comic book movies in general.

Kate: I really wish I loved "Guardians of the Galaxy". I left the theater knowing that I if I was a male child of the 1980s, "GotG" would have been my jam. Maybe it's because I'm a chick or maybe it's because since having daughters, I look for something more in the movies I watch. When I saw the article from Slate, I really wanted to be on board with the idea that Gamora was the hidden hero of the story. The idea that Marvel wasn't ready for a female-led movie, so this was the way of sneaking in a strong female character but still marketing to guys was a really cool idea, but I couldn't suspend my disbelief. I've been behind the curtain of the Wizard of Oz and I've seen the old man with no real magic pulling the strings. So in my article, I touch on the business side of Marvel as it relates to a female-led superhero movie. But my personal feelings on Gamora ... I felt that we were rehashing old stereotypes. I felt she was almost an homage to Black Widow, where there is a backstory that we don't get to see. But when that backstory involves daddy issues, that's when I throw my hands up and give up. I don't relate to daddy or mommy issues in stories. It's not something that connects with me. The trailers didn't help either cement a good impression. I remember a trailer where we see Gamora's bare back with Quill saying, "You're a good-looking girl. You should try to be more nice to people," and then a few scenes of her kicking people. My first thought was a rehash of "Star Trek Into Darkness" and the random undressing scene, which also felt unnecessary. Luckily, it seems the bareback Gamora scene was cut, but I still wasn't all that excited. In the trailers, she and Amy Pond (yeah I know I'm a Whovian) were mainly there to wear tight outfits and kick ass. Seen it. Bored with it.

As to how women are portrayed in comic book movies in general, I feel like we're moving forward. I wish it was faster, but we're on the right bus with many stops and starts along the way. I loved Agent Carter in "Captain America: The First Avenger." I love watching Skye and May in "Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D." I adored that Pepper Potts got into the suit in "Iron Man 3." I love Black Widow in every Marvel movie she's in. These are strong women who have their own job/mission and problems to solve. Many times, they cross paths with the hero's and they are an asset. I prefer it when any character, male or female, has a point to be there and not just to be the comic relief, the heavy or the love interest. To me, that is lazy writing.

I was about to go into "Wonder Woman" Gal Gadot but then this might be far too long.

Joe: There are a lot of ways we can go with this. I disagree that Marvel isn't ready for a female-driven hero. They just haven't gotten to one that they feel is there quite yet. We are, however, getting the female hero TV show: Don't forget Jessica Jones, coming soon to a Netflix account near you.

I'd disagree also with Gamora's "daddy issues." I'd argue she is a closer cousin to Antigone, forced to ask for permission to bury her mom and dad (metaphorically of course). She's seeking revenge on Thanos. Thanos killed her parents, and she has been biding time for years getting close to him, becoming one of his "children," only to betray him. In that way she's a much richer character, and it gives her a disservice to call them "daddy issues." My issue in "Guardians" is that this isn't made clearer. It would have been easy enough to add a scene for her parallel to Peter Quill's where we see Thanos take them out and "adopt" her, just like Yondu adopted Peter. There's an interesting parallel there that they didn't explore.

As for Karen Gillan (Nebula), I'd argue her character wasn't sexualized at all, especially compared to Gamora. Under all of that makeup and prosthetics, it was difficult to see her at all. She also had a somewhat underdeveloped character, though. Both of them had the makings of a great clash, but the movie kind of let its ladies down in that regard. But what do you cut out? It's not like Drax or Rocket or Groot had it any better.

Kate: If Marvel is so ready for a female-driven hero, then why isn't one in the pipeline? They are currently on record knowing their releases through 2021. We're getting "Ant-Man" and "Doctor Strange" before finishing up the Black Widow storyline they set up in "Iron Man 2"? The backpedaling from the top on the Black Widow movie doesn't give me much hope. I remember when I was all excited about the "Wonder Woman" series coming to CW that also never happened so I'm not holding my breath on the Jessica Jones Netflix deal. When I see "Marvel" with the words "in development," I have lowered expectations that it will ever see the light of day. I'm jaded that way.

It goes back to my analogy that we're on the right track but there are a lot of stops along the way. I'm most likely on for the whole ride, but it's disappointing when I have two young daughters who are itching to see a female superhero to look up to on the big screen and it's looking more and more likely they won't even get one until they are in college...if that.

With the daddy issues of Gamora, it's all about context and in the case of "GotG," we didn't have it. We had exposition, we had stereotypes. That allows the viewer to fill in whatever motivation they want, and in my case with the crappy movies that have been sold on strong female characters who turn out are only strong because they are trying to be better than their father, I'm over it. I know very few women who are trying to be better than their father; it doesn't ring true to my real-life experiences.

Nebula was an seriously underdeveloped character. She felt like the Darth Maul of the film except I didn't find myself rooting for her, which was odd. That character was just...there. You're right: The makings are there, but, yeah...a missed opportunity. It is what it is. No movie is perfect.

Joe: Frankly speaking, there isn't a solo Marvel female character that seems readily suited to a standalone movie. Black Widow is in full swing and is prominent across several Avengers films, but she doesn't have any great one-on-one adversaries. Who else? Wasp? She will probably be in "Ant Man," but again she's not an upper-tier character. Ms. Marvel is probably one of the top candidates, but seriously, can you name one of her adversaries?

This is as much a statement on the poor history of female superheroes as anything, but the strong female characters just aren't there. Most of them are members of a team (many of whom I'll mention below). They're working on fixing that stuff now, but in the immediate future I fear forcing a few into solo movies would lead to lesser characters getting movies, which will lead to fewer runaway hits, which will only serve to further increase the ludicrous perception that female-led movies don't make money.

I would argue that given the limitations they've put on themselves, Marvel is already doing right by women, as you've noted. If anything, I think Gamora went against stereotype, so much so that they winked at it with her teased kiss with Star Lord, only for her to back off and assert herself, not allowing herself to be the love interest.

Then as you noted, you have Pepper Potts, Black Widow, Peggy Carter (and Agent 13 in "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" for that matter, though she only got a scene or two) and (again Sony, but still a Marvel character) Gwen Stacy in "The Amazing Spider-Man 2" especially and consciously broke away from the damsel-in-distress thing and contributed. (OK, so she was a damsel in the end, but she fought valiantly and did more than Mary Jane Watson ever did). You can even go back to Storm and Mystique and Yuriko in the "X-Men" movies. Elektra was ultimately embarrassing in "Daredevil" and her horrific spinoff movie.

Plus, Sony announced a female-led "Spider-Man" spinoff, and it seems doomed to failure. It's likely either going to be Black Cat, which is WAAAY too close to a certain Batman villain, or Silver Sable, which would be strange and random. Spider-Woman would be a solid choice, but she is relatively unknown, and the Supergirl/Batgirl phenomenon will create confusion among people who don't realize she's not really all that connected to Spider-Man, nor does she have powers similar to his.

Ironically, it's going to have to be DC that takes this step with Wonder Woman, and they've already chickened out by sticking her in the Batman/Superman movie first.

Kate: And there's the rub: The poor history of female superheroes with actual adversaries in the Marvel canon. Wonder Woman has the same problem. And that's why even the female supporting characters are so important to me because really, it's all I'm gonna get for a good long time.